although, i think i have addressed my view of the crusades somewhere… :-)

this is a serious question, and i think the knotty problem of history and culture.

Unfortunately, the problem is that not being exceptional doesn’t mean it wasn’t shit or barbaric or downright SATANIC, it just means that practices of indigenous genocide was the NORM in all these places.

Our history does not have a few “dark patches” mate – our country, as with all these other colonised countries, is built on the annihilation of the original caretakers.

You are right – our current day reality is pretty peachy (although you might want to talk to minority groups like the homeless, Aboriginals, homosexuals, and illegal asylum seekers to get their take on it). But this is inspite of our past and should never be used to justify or minimise how we got here (not saying you did ;-) )

re: our history as a nation… it’s all relative… take a look at the history of africa, the americas and europe, and i think you realize that our story is not so remarkable or even exceptional. we may have had some very dark patches, but broadly speaking we have a present day reality that is not so bad given our history, which is more than can be said for many other places.

i grew up in africa, so i guess i have seen first hand that things can and have been a lot worse…

leadership retreat was really good. i think we might have even accidently attained consensus… dammit! :-)

I too think that democracy has it’s problems and tend to lean towards consensus (talk about another can of worms! ;-) )

And if you think my one sentence statement about Australia’s European colonial history is a “little negative”, then mate, you need to do some more research into our history – I was being kind ;-)

hope you have a good leadership retreat.

ciao

democracy is a system which is wonderful because we all like having a say, but if it is theologically true that we are sinners whose general inclination is towards ourselves and what works for us in our self-centredness and selfishness, then democracy actually becomes an interesting endeavour in terms of the right thing being done.

i would suggest that some of the greatest political actions historically (eg. terminating slavery and ending racism, apartheid, and a number of other evils in our world) have come about IN SPITE of democratic processes which enshrined those things. it took enormous leadership by people who stood against the view of the majority to persuade, cajole, resist, and stand for what was right. think about it. i lived in south africa during a time when the majority within the governance system were quite ok with the status quo. it took leadership to shift that. and those people had to work against the majority. in fact, i would suggest that a similar situation is again needed in south africa, where there are many now standing against the new majority to bring about fresh change in a system that has become corrupted in a whole new way.

i don’t like the label “patriarchal” because i think it perjorative and misreads my argument here. i know we disagree on the notion of leadership, so i guess that’s just that. frankly, i also think that your assessment of australian history is a tad negative too… but that’s a whole nuther can of worms.

my gran used to say that there’s no better thing than a great king, and no worse thing than a bad one. i sometimes think that little aphorism has some merit to it, in spite of my own republican tendencies. i like democracy too, believe me, but i guess i look at some situations, whether they be relatively trivial things like daylight savings, or bigger issues of racism or whatever, and i don’t think democracy always serves us well if there are not strong leaders to resist the majority view when it is wrong.

anyhoo… i’m happy i get to vote. i’m just annoyed that i’m voting on something so silly…

what you’re talking about Mark is more like leadership by expertise – knowing what is best for people regardless of whether they know it or want it. This is patriarchal to the core, but as you say, not necessarily self-interested.

But this country’s recent history (since 1788) is built on the “wisdom” of patriarchal, christian, well-meaning, experts, and what a balls-up of eternal proportion that has proven to be.

As far as i can tell, our politicians, no matter how gutless and short-sighted they may be, are doing exactly what we vote them in to do – represent what 51% or greater of the population wants them to do.